everyone else in the system has an election and obama doesn't. so as his capital goes down and his vision gets wider, historically everyone else is getting narrower to that -- it not even to election day in '14 but to primary day. >> with all that said, lee, you look at the deal, as michael said, the president came out big. not only does he want taxes to go up on the wealthy but stimulus spending, the power to raise the debt ceiling. where is the middle ground? who blinks on these questions of taxes? >> everyone is doubling down and waiting for the other side to blink first. that's why we'll push this. this could be all choreographed. we don't know what's happening with the side conversations. both sides will probably give. everyone knows that will be the case. the president has a lot of leverage. he, of course, doesn't have absolute leverage but has more than he had. learned a lesson in 2001. he's coming out of the gate with strong rhetoric. >> michael? >> if you took grover out of the equation and lowered the flame, how long do you think it wou